Re: [Xen-devel] Security discussion: Summary of proposals and criteria (was Re: Security vulnerability process, and CVE-2012-0217)

[Joanna Rutkowska <joanna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On 07/09/12 13:31, Joanna Rutkowska wrote:
> On 07/09/12 11:23, George Dunlap wrote:
>> > On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 8:30 AM, Joanna Rutkowska
>> > <joanna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> >> On 07/06/12 18:46, George Dunlap wrote:
>>>> >>> Another question has to do with robustness of enforcement.  If there
>>>> >>> is a strong incentive for people on the list to break the rules
>>>> >>> ("moral hazard"), then we need to import a whole legal framework: how
>>>> >>> do we detect breaking the rules?
>>> >>
>>> >> 1) Realizing that somebody released patched binaries during embargo is
>>> >> simple.
>>> >>
>>> >> 2) Detecting that somebody patched their systems might be harder (after
>>> >> all we're not going to perform pen-tests on EC2 systems and the likes,
>>> >> right? ;)
>>> >>
>>> >> 3) Detecting that somebody sold info about the bug/exploit to the black
>>> >> market might be prohibitively hard -- the only thing that might
>>> >> *somehow* help is the use of some smart water marking (e.g. of the proof
>>> >> of concept code). Of course, if a person fully understands the
>>> >> bug/exploit, she would be able to recreate it from scratch herself, and
>>> >> then sell to the bad guys.
>>> >>
>>> >> On the other hand, the #2 above, seems like the least problematic for
>>> >> the safety of others. After all if the proverbial AWS folks patch their
>>> >> systems quietly, it doesn't immediately give others (the bad guys)
>>> >> access to the info about the bug, because nobody external (normally
>>> >> should) have access to the (running) binaries on the providers machines.
>>> >> So, perhaps #3 is of biggest concern to the community.
>> > 
>> > The reason I brought up the issue above didn't so much have to do with
>> > the risk of people leaking it, but to help evaluate the proposals that
>> > had "No roll-out is allowed until the patch date".  There's probably
>> > little incentive or ability for the average programmer / IT person to
>> > sell the bug on the black market.  (I have no idea how I would begin
>> > to go about it, for instance.)
> If you're into security industry (going to conferences, etc) you
> certainly know the right people who would be delight to buy exploits
> from you, believe me ;) Probably most Xen developers don't fit into this
> crowd, true, but then again, do you think it would be so hard for an
> interested organization to approach one of the Xen developers on the
> pre-disclousure list? How many would resist if they had a chance to cash
> in some 7-figure number for this (I read in the press that hot
> bugs/exploits sell for this amount actually)?

(Correction: I meant a 6-figure number)

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