Re: [Xen-devel] Proposed XENMEM_claim_pages hypercall: Analysis of problem and alternate solutions

[Dan Magenheimer <dan.magenheimer@xxxxxxxxxx>]

> From: George Dunlap [mailto:george.dunlap@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] Proposed XENMEM_claim_pages hypercall: Analysis of 
> problem and alternate
> solutions

Hi George -- I trust we have gotten past the recent unpleasantness?
I do value your technical input to this debate (even when we
disagree), so I thank you for continuing the discussion below.

> On 09/01/13 14:44, Dan Magenheimer wrote:
> >> From: Ian Campbell [mailto:Ian.Campbell@xxxxxxxxxx]
> >> Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] Proposed XENMEM_claim_pages hypercall: Analysis 
> >> of problem and alternate
> >> solutions
> >>
> >> On Tue, 2013-01-08 at 19:41 +0000, Dan Magenheimer wrote:
> >>> [1] A clarification: In the Oracle model, there is only maxmem;
> >>> i.e. current_maxmem is always the same as lifetime_maxmem;
> >> This is exactly what I am proposing that you change in order to
> >> implement something like the claim mechanism in the toolstack.
> >>
> >> If your model is fixed in stone and cannot accommodate changes of this
> >> type then there isn't much point in continuing this conversation.
> >>
> >> I think we need to agree on this before we consider the rest of your
> >> mail in detail, so I have snipped all that for the time being.
> > Agreed that it is not fixed in stone.  I should have said
> > "In the _current_ Oracle model" and that footnote was only for
> > comparison purposes.  So, please, do proceed in commenting on the
> > two premises I outlined.
> >
> >>> i.e. d->max_pages is fixed for the life of the domain and
> >>> only d->tot_pages varies; i.e. no intelligence is required
> >>> in the toolstack.  AFAIK, the distinction between current_maxmem
> >>> and lifetime_maxmem was added for Citrix DMC support.
> >> I don't believe Xen itself has any such concept, the distinction is
> >> purely internal to the toolstack and which value it chooses to push down
> >> to d->max_pages.
> > Actually I believe a change was committed to the hypervisor specifically
> > to accommodate this.  George mentioned it earlier in this thread...
> > I'll have to dig to find the specific changeset but the change allows
> > the toolstack to reduce d->max_pages so that it is (temporarily)
> > less than d->tot_pages.  Such a change would clearly be unnecessary
> > if current_maxmem was always the same as lifetime_maxmem.
> 
> Not exactly.  You could always change d->max_pages; and so there was
> never a concept of "lifetime_maxmem" inside of Xen.

(Well, not exactly "always", but since Aug 2006... changeset 11257.
There being no documentation, it's not clear whether the addition
of a domctl to modify d->max_pages was intended to be used
frequently by the toolstack, as opposed to used only rarely and only
by a responsible host system administrator.)

> The change I think you're talking about is this.  While you could always
> change d->max_pages, it used to be the case that if you tried to set
> d->max_pages to a value less than d->tot_pages, it would return
> -EINVAL*.    What this meant was that if you wanted to use d->max_pages
> to enforce a ballooning request, you had to do the following:
>   1. Issue a balloon request to the guest
>   2. Wait for the guest to successfully balloon down to the new target
>   3. Set d->max_pages to the new target.
> 
> The waiting made the logic more complicated, and also introduced a race
> between steps 2 and 3.  So the change was made so that Xen would
> tolerate setting max_pages to less than tot_pages.  Then things looked
> like this:
>   1. Set d->max_pages to the new target
>   2. Issue a balloon request to the guest.
> 
> The new semantics guaranteed that the guest would not be able to "change
> its mind" and ask for memory back after freeing it without the toolstack
> needing to closely monitor the actual current usage.
> 
> But even before the change, it was still possible to change max_pages;
> so the change doesn't have any bearing on the discussion here.
> 
>   -George
> 
> * I may have some of the details incorrect (e.g., maybe it was
> d->tot_pages+something else, maybe it didn't return -EINVAL but failed
> in some other way), but the general idea is correct.

Yes, understood.  Ian please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe
your proposal (at least as last stated) does indeed, in some cases,
set d->max_pages less than or equal to d->tot_pages.  So AFAICT the
change does very much have a bearing on the discussion here. 

> The new semantics guaranteed that the guest would not be able to "change
> its mind" and ask for memory back after freeing it without the toolstack
> needing to closely monitor the actual current usage.

Exactly.  So, in your/Ian's model, you are artificially constraining a
guest's memory growth, including any dynamic allocations*.  If, by bad luck,
you do that at a moment when the guest was growing and is very much in
need of that additional memory, the guest may now swapstorm or OOM, and
the toolstack has seriously impacted a running guest.  Oracle considers
this both unacceptable and unnecessary.

In the Oracle model, d->max_pages never gets changed, except possibly
by explicit rare demand by a host administrator.  In the Oracle model,
the toolstack has no business arbitrarily changing a constraint for a
guest that can have a serious impact on the guest.  In the Oracle model,
each guest shrinks and grows its memory needs self-adaptively, only
constrained by the vm.cfg at the launch of the guest and the physical
limits of the machine (max-of-sums because it is done in the hypervisor,
not sum-of-maxes).  All this uses working shipping code upstream in
Xen and Linux... except that you are blocking from open source the
proposed XENMEM_claim_pages hypercall.

So, I think it is very fair (not snide) to point out that a change was
made to the hypervisor to accommodate your/Ian's memory-management model,
a change that Oracle considers unnecessary, a change explicitly
supporting your/Ian's model, which is a model that has not been
implemented in open source and has no clear (let alone proven) policy
to guide it.  Yet you wish to block a minor hypervisor change which
is needed to accommodate Oracle's shipping memory-management model?

Please reconsider.

Thanks,
Dan

* To repeat my definition of that term, "dynamic allocations" means
any increase to d->tot_pages that is unbeknownst to the toolstack,
including specifically in-guest ballooning and certain tmem calls.

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