Re: [Xen-devel] RFC: xen config changes v4

[Stefano Stabellini <stefano.stabellini@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Fri, 27 Feb 2015, Juergen Gross wrote:
> On 02/27/2015 01:24 PM, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> > On Fri, 27 Feb 2015, Juergen Gross wrote:
> > > On 02/27/2015 11:11 AM, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 27 Feb 2015, Juergen Gross wrote:
> > > > > On 02/27/2015 10:41 AM, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> > > > > > On Fri, 27 Feb 2015, Juergen Gross wrote:
> > > > > > > On 02/26/2015 06:42 PM, Stefano Stabellini wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Thu, 26 Feb 2015, Luis R. Rodriguez wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 11:08:20AM +0000, Stefano Stabellini
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 26 Feb 2015, David Vrabel wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On 26/02/15 04:59, Juergen Gross wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > So we are again in the situation that pv-drivers always
> > > > > > > > > > > > imply
> > > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > pvops
> > > > > > > > > > > > kernel (PARAVIRT selected). I started the whole Kconfig
> > > > > > > > > > > > rework
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > eliminate this dependency.
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Yes.  Can you produce a series that just addresses this
> > > > > > > > > > > one
> > > > > > > > > > > issue.
> > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > In the absence of any concrete requirement for this big
> > > > > > > > > > > Kconfig
> > > > > > > > > > > reorg
> > > > > > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > > > > I don't think it is helpful.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > I clearly missed some context as I didn't realize that this
> > > > > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > intended goal. Why do we want this? Please explain as it
> > > > > > > > > > won't
> > > > > > > > > > come
> > > > > > > > > > for free.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > We have a few PV interfaces for HVM guests that need
> > > > > > > > > > PARAVIRT in
> > > > > > > > > > Linux
> > > > > > > > > > in order to be used, for example pv_time_ops and
> > > > > > > > > > HVMOP_pagetable_dying.
> > > > > > > > > > They are critical performance improvements and from the
> > > > > > > > > > interface
> > > > > > > > > > perspective, small enough that doesn't make much sense
> > > > > > > > > > having a
> > > > > > > > > > separate
> > > > > > > > > > KConfig option for them.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > In order to reach the goal above we necessarily need to
> > > > > > > > > > introduce a
> > > > > > > > > > differentiation in terms of PV on HVM guests in Linux:
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 1) basic guests with PV network, disk, etc but no PV timers,
> > > > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > >        HVMOP_pagetable_dying, no PV IPIs
> > > > > > > > > > 2) full PV on HVM guests that have PV network, disk, timers,
> > > > > > > > > >        HVMOP_pagetable_dying, PV IPIs and anything else that
> > > > > > > > > > makes
> > > > > > > > > > sense.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 2) is much faster than 1) on Xen and 2) is only a tiny bit
> > > > > > > > > > slower
> > > > > > > > > > than
> > > > > > > > > > 1) on native x86
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Also don't we shove 2) down hvm guests right now? Even when
> > > > > > > > > everything
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > built in I do not see how we opt out for HVM for 1) at run
> > > > > > > > > time
> > > > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > > now.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > If this is true then the question of motivation for this
> > > > > > > > > becomes
> > > > > > > > > even
> > > > > > > > > stronger I think.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Yes, indeed there is no way to do 1) at the moment. And for good
> > > > > > > > reasons, see above.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Hmm, after checking the code I'm not convinced:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > - HVMOP_pagetable_dying is obsolete on modern hardware supporting
> > > > > > >      EPT/HAP
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > That might be true, but what about older hardware?
> > > > > > Even on modern hardware a few workloads still run faster on shadow.
> > > > > > But if HVMOP_pagetable_dying is the only reason to keep PARAVIRT for
> > > > > > HVM
> > > > > > guests, then I agree with you that we should remove it.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > > - PV IPIs are not needed on single-vcpu guests
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > - PARAVIRT_CLOCK doesn't need PARAVIRT (in fact the SUSEs kernel
> > > > > > > configs
> > > > > > >      for all x86_64 kernels have CONFIG_PARAVIRT_CLOCK=y)
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > So I think we really should enable building Xen frontends without
> > > > > > > PARAVIRT, implying at least no XEN_PV and no XEN_PVH.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > I'll have a try setting up patches.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > If we are doing this as a performance improvement, I would like to
> > > > > > see a
> > > > > > couple of benchmarks (kernbench, hackbench) to show that on a
> > > > > > single-vcpu guest and multi-vcpu guest (let's say 4 vcpus) disabling
> > > > > > PARAVIRT leads to better performance on Xen on EPT hardware.
> > > > > 
> > > > > This is not meant to be a performance improvement. It is meant to
> > > > > enable
> > > > > a standard distro kernel configured without PARAVIRT to be able to run
> > > > > as a HVM guest using the pv-drivers.
> > > > 
> > > > This is not a convincing explanation.  Debian, Ubuntu and Fedora seems
> > > > to be able to cope with it just fine.
> > > > 
> > > > Why do you want to do that, even though it will cause a performance
> > > > regression and a maintenance pain?  You haven't provided a reason yet.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Either we are talking about different things, or I really don't
> > > understand your problem here. I don't want to disable something. I
> > > just want to enable kernels without PARAVIRT to run under Xen better
> > > than today. Being it 32 bit non-PAE kernels as Ian pointed out or
> > > distro kernels like e.g. SLES and probably RHEL.
> > > 
> > > Using PV frontends is completely orthogonal to other PV enhancements
> > > like PARAVIRT_CLOCK, HVMOP_pagetable_dying or PV IPIs. So why do you
> > > object enabling the PV frontends for those kernels?
> > 
> > I am for it.  I would like to avoid two user visible XEN enablement
> > options (XEN_FRONTEND vs. XEN_PVHVM) for x86_64 and PAE HVM guests to
> > avoid configurations with just XEN_FRONTEND, that can be considered a
> > performance regression compared to what we have now (on x86_64 and PAE).
> 
> Would you be okay with making this an expert configuration alternative
> for PAE/x86_64? This would enable the possibility to use PV drivers for
> native-performance-tuned kernels. I would explicitly mention the better
> alternative XEN_PVHVM in the Kconfig help text.

I would prefer to hide it on PAE and x86_64.

_______________________________________________
Xen-devel mailing list
Xen-devel@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://lists.xen.org/xen-devel