[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index] Re: [PATCH 0/3] x86: make pat and mtrr independent from each other
Hi Thorsten, I am forwarding this to you to help you cut through the noise. Unfortunately the discussion of fixes for this regression has degenerated into ad hominum attacks. I admit that I started complaining about the response of the maintainers to this regression and now they are attacking me. I do apologize, but I do not want to over-apologize. I do not apologize for trying to get the fix for this regression rolling again. After all, it has been over three months since the regression was first reported. I don't think I should be accused of doing anything wrong just for asking for some transparency, honesty, and a realistic estimate for how long it will take before a fix is committed from the maintainers responsible for and working on a fix for this regression. I do want you to provide some feedback here on the public mailing lists. I present the following message which cuts out the noise and I think describes fairly completely the problems that are preventing a fix for this regression from getting merged into the mainline kernel. Can you weigh in with your opinion about what should be done now? Best regards, Chuck On 8/14/2022 11:23 PM, Chuck Zmudzinski wrote: > On 8/14/22 4:08 AM, Juergen Gross wrote: > > > On 8/13/2022 12:56 PM, Chuck Zmudzinski wrote: > > > > > > This is a fairly long message but I think what I need to say > > > here is important for the future success of Linux and open > > > source software, so here goes.... > > > > > > Update: I accept Boris Petkov's response to me yesterday as reasonable > > > and acceptable if within two weeks he at least explains on the public > > > mailing lists how he and Juergen have privately agreed to fix this > > > regression > > > "soon" if he does not actually fix the regression by then with a commit, > > > patch set, or merge. The two-week time frame is from here: > > > > > > https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/handling-regressions.html > > > > > > where developers and maintainers are exhorted as follows: "Try to fix > > > regressions quickly once the culprit has been identified; fixes for most > > > regressions should be merged within two weeks, but some need to be > > > resolved within two or three days." > > > > And some more citations from the same document: > > > > "Prioritize work on handling regression reports and fixing regression over > > all > > other Linux kernel work, unless the latter concerns acute security issues or > > bugs causing data loss or damage." > > > > First thing to note here: "over all Linux kernel work". I' not only working > > on the kernel, but I have other responsibilities e.g. in the Xen community, > > where I was sending patches for fixing a regression and where I'm quite busy > > doing security related work. Apart from that I'm of course responsible to > > handle SUSE customers' bug reports at a rather high priority. So please stop > > accusing me to ignore the responses to these patches. This is just not > > really > > motivating me to continue interacting with you. > > You are busy, and that is always true for someone with your responsibilities. > That is an acceptable reason to delay your responses for a time. > > > > > "Always consider reverting the culprit commits and reapplying them later > > together with necessary fixes, as this might be the least dangerous and > > quickest > > way to fix a regression." > > > > I didn't introduce the regression, nor was it introduced in my area of > > maintainership. It just happened to hit Xen. So I stepped up after Jan's > > patches > > were not deemed to be the way to go, and I wrote the patches in spite of me > > having other urgent work to do. In case you are feeling so strong about the > > fix > > of the regression, why don't you ask for the patch introducing it to be > > reverted > > instead? > > I have asked for this on more than one occasion, but I was either > ignored or shot down every time. The fact is, among the persons > who have the power to actually commit a fix, only you and Boris > are currently indicating any willingness to actually fix the regression. > I will say the greater responsibility for this falls on Boris because > he is an x86 maintainer, and you have every right to walk away > and say "I will not work on a fix," and I would not blame you or accuse > you of doing anything wrong if you did that. You are under no obligation > to fix this. Boris is the one who must fix it, or the Intel developers, > by reverting the commit that was originally identified as the bad > commit. > > If it is any consolation to you, Juergen, I think the greatest problem > is the silence of the drm/i915 maintainers, and Thorsten also expressed > some dissatisfaction because of that, but since there is also some > consensus that the fix should be done in x86 or x86/pat instead of > in drm/i915, another problem is the lack of initiative by the x86 > developers to fix it. If they do not know how to fix it and need to > rely on someone with Xen expertise, they should be giving you > more assistance and feedback than they currently are. So far, only > Boris shows any interest, and now my only critique of your behavior > is that in your message, you chose to engage in an ad hominum attack > against me instead of taking the same amount of time to at least > briefly answer the questions Boris raised about your patch set over > three weeks ago. Your decision to attack me instead of working on > the fix was, IMHO, not helpful and constructive. > > Accusing me and Boris is not acceptable at all! > > OK, I understand, now we are even. I have said it is unacceptable to > not give greater priority to the regression fix or at least keep interested > persons informed if there is a reason to continue to delay a fix, which > ordinarily should only take two weeks, but now we are at more than > three months. Now, you are saying it is unacceptable for me to accuse > you and Boris. OK, so we are even. We each think the other is acting > in an unacceptable way. I still think it is unacceptable to not work on > the fix and instead engage in ad hominum attacks. Maybe I am wrong. > Maybe maintainers are supposed to attack persons who are not > maintainers when such outsiders try to help and encourage better > cooperation and end the hostile silence by the maintainers who are > responsible to fix this. But that does not make sense to me. It makes > sense to hold accountable those persons who are responsible for fixing > this (and you, Juergen, are not the one that needs to be held accountable). > AFAICT, that is not being done and instead I am being attacked for trying > to get work towards a fix rolling again. > > > > > > I also think there is a private agreement between Juergen and Boris to > > > fix this regression because AFAICT there is no evidence in the public > > > mailing lists that such an agreement has been reached, yet Boris yesterday > > > told me on the public mailing lists in this thread to be "patient" and > > > that > > > "we will fix this soon." Unless I am missing something, and I hope I am, > > > the only way that a fix could be coming "soon" would be to presume > > > that Juergen and Boris have agreed to a fix for the regression in private. > > > > > > However, AFAICT, keeping their solution private would be a violation of > > > netiquette as described here: > > > > > > https://people.kernel.org/tglx/notes-about-netiquette > > > > > > where a whole section is devoted to the importance of keeping the > > > discussion of changes to the kernel in public, with private discussions > > > being a violation of the netiquette that governs the discussions that > > > take place between persons interested in the Linux kernel project and > > > other open source projects. > > > > Another uncalled for attack. > > I am just asking for some transparency and an indication that > a fix is really and truly in sight. It would only take you a few > minutes to fulfill what I am asking you to do now. The fact is, > Boris commented on your patches over three weeks ago and > asked you if you accepted the approach he outlined and you > have remained silent. That does not indicate you and Boris > are close to coming to a fix even though Boris stated that a fix > is coming soon. Based on what has been said on the mailing > lists, I just don't see the fix coming soon. That's all I can say > about it now. > > > > > After sending the patches I just told Boris via IRC that I wouldn't react > > to any responses soon, as I was about to start my vacation. > > That is certainly a valid reason to delay work on this - you were on > vacation. I hope you enjoyed yourself and had a good time. But I > had no way of knowing this because I was not part of the IRC > communication, so I cannot be blamed for not knowing this. > > > I will continue with the patches as soon as I find time to do so. > > I am willing to wait patiently for you to get back to these patches, > and I hope you can agree that you should find a few minutes > to confirm or deny Boris' statement that a fix is coming "soon" > by posting a public message to this thread within the next two > weeks, given that this regression has not been fixed for over three > months. I will not be upset if you say something like: "it looks like > it might take a while for Boris and I to work out the details of a fix, > it might take until the end of the year," and briefly explain why there > will be a delay. Boris might not like that because it would contradict > his statement that a fix is coming "soon" but I would rather be told > the truth - that the fix is going to be delayed, than be told a lie - that > a fix is coming soon. > > Thanks for all the work you do. > > Best regards, > > Chuck
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