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[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index] Re: [Publicity] A thought piece: Docker and Unikernels
I've done some work with Sarah and Libby to see if the piece can be reconstructed as requested. After working with this for a while, I think it falls apart. Talking about people using Docker in VMs before revealing the supposed death of hypervisors destroys the premise of the piece: the only logical end point is to assert that the very notion of a "battle" between hypervisors and containers is false. And that means total rewrite. With the concept of a "battle" gone, the punch of the piece is gone. An argument piece must be punchy. Without the battle, the piece begins a descent into clinical logic, which is useless in a screaming crowd. Without a total rethink and rewrite, the piece is doomed to failure. I don't think the praises of Docker should be moved to the bottom. If I don't acknowledge the value of Docker early, I will be quickly dismissed as a hypervisor bigot and many people will quit reading before they see that I understand its value. Also, the best way to put an opponent off balance is to compliment him or her, and then smack them. I know this piece isn't all that folks want. Maybe I'm not smart enough to do that, or maybe I just don't have enough time. But I know what I have successfully done to wake readers up in the past. I'm suggesting we go with the attached. If it isn't what we want, I will scrap it and let someone else do a more appropriate piece. Russ Pavlicek Xen Project Evangelist, Citrix Systems Home Office: +1-301-829-5327 Mobile: +1-240-397-0199 UK VoIP: +44 1223 852 894 ________________________________________ From: Amir Chaudhry [amc79@xxxxxxxxx] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 9:50 AM To: Lars Kurth; Russell Pavlicek Cc: Sarah Conway; Libby Clark; George Dunlap; publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx list Subject: Re: [Publicity] A thought piece: Docker and Unikernels Russell, thanks for wading through my stream of consciousness. I was worried I'd torpedoed the discussion and that was not my intent. Regarding this post, I can completely understand the need for a 'hold your horses' position but I think the current post can still be improved in that regard. My suggestions are: - The section on the benefits of containerisation can be moved to much later in the post, in a shorter paragraph. There's no need to start a 'hold your horses' post by spurring the horses. - The paragraph beginning "According to reports from a couple different attendees of LinuxCon..." needs to be nearer the top. IMHO this is the meat as it describes why Xen matters (and incidentally, is the kind of scenario I alluded to). - The only argument in the piece is about shared kernels. There's probably more than this which can be pointed out, e.g if one of your deployments needs an upgraded/different host OS, you're stuck having to deal with issues on other containers (to keep things in lockstep). - I feel more should be said about Xen/hypervisors before getting to unikernels. At the moment there's only one paragraph. Unikernels make sense in the context of Xen (especially now that it's working on ARM — which itself is an important point). - (related to above) The section on unikernels needs more of a lead in. At the moment it comes across as a non-sequitur. - "Mirage OS from Xen Project" is better as "Mirage OS, incubated at Xen Project," I'm more than happy to help with this post if you'd like actual edits and I can clear time this afternoon (UK time). Just invite me to a Google doc where we can edit. If you'd prefer to go live as is, I understand that too. Best wishes, Amir On 27 Aug 2014, at 10:12, Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > Given the recent Docker and VMWare hype, which pretty much seems to be about > very little – aka running Docker within VMWare containers and some tools > integration. A concept that both AWS and Google have completed a while back, > I agree with Russell here. I am not sure how effective it will be, but we > should try > Lars > > From: Russell Pavlicek <russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx> > Date: Wednesday, 27 August 2014 06:01 > To: Sarah Conway <sconway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Libby Clark > <lclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Cc: Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xxxxxxxxxx>, George Dunlap > <george.dunlap@xxxxxxxxxx>, "publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" > <publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Subject: RE: [Publicity] A thought piece: Docker and Unikernels > > Sarah/Libby, > > I've attached a slightly modified post. > > I'd rather see this in Linux.com rather than XenProject.org so it won't be > mistaken as an "official" Xen Project position. > > Regarding Amir's comments: > > I've finally had the time to give your comments the consideration they are > do. And, while I see your argument and look forward to your development of > the concept into a substantial article somewhere (and I am sure the > XenProject.org blog will be happy to publish that piece when you have it > completed), I don't feel I should severely modify the piece I've written. > > Amir is rightly concerned that my post will be perceived as a (rather myopic) > official position paper. In fact, it is nothing of the sort. I've written > many such pieces over the years to call out what I perceive as dangerous > errors in a populist "hive mind" position. The purpose of the piece is to > cry, "Whoa!" to a team of horses which are in danger of inciting an > ill-considered stampede. The carefully detailed whitepapers describing a > meticulous counter proposal are still needed, but they will not be heeded > until the crowd in motion slows down enough to read. > > My piece is the cry to slow things down. I look forward to Amir's piece (and > others) which give us a reasoned argument for a better direction. But those > pieces will be ignored and trampled unless we can first halt the stampede and > get people to slow down enough to heed reason. > > Amir, I have pitched a talk for CPOSC in November about the rise of the > unikernel. I'd be thrilled to see how your workflow justification matures so > I can possibly incorporate elements of your thought into that talk (with > attribution), I believe a talk like that would be an excellent place to > introduce a more logical positioning of unikernels. > > Russ Pavlicek > Xen Project Evangelist, Citrix Systems > Home Office: +1-301-829-5327 > Mobile: +1-301-814-1143 > UK VoIP: +44 1223 852 894 > From: Russell Pavlicek > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 4:10 PM > To: Sarah Conway; Libby Clark > Cc: Lars Kurth; George Dunlap; publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: RE: [Publicity] A thought piece: Docker and Unikernels > > Sarah, > > Let me see what I can do this evening on this. > > Thanks, > > Russ Pavlicek > Xen Project Evangelist, Citrix Systems > Home Office: +1-301-829-5327 > Mobile: +1-240-397-0199 > UK VoIP: +44 1223 852 894 > From: publicity-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > [publicity-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] on behalf of Sarah Conway > [sconway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] > Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 12:48 PM > To: Libby Clark > Cc: Lars Kurth; George Dunlap; publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: [Publicity] A thought piece: Docker and Unikernels > > Hi Russ, > > Do you have a revised, updated blog to share? If so, please email it so I can > review it again. Might want to publish today or tomorrow to catch some of the > VMWorld momentum. > > > > On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 8:42 AM, Libby Clark <lclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > wrote: >> Happy to run on Linux.com if it suits you, Lars. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> > On Aug 20, 2014, at 7:33 AM, Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> > >> > I thought about it and it would be ok on our blog. But we are sort of >> > preaching to the converted there, so another channel may be better >> > Lars >> > ________________________________________ >> > From: Tzach Livyatan [tzach@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] >> > Sent: 20 August 2014 10:06 >> > To: Russell Pavlicek >> > Cc: Anil Madhavapeddy; Libby Clark; Lars Kurth; George Dunlap; >> > publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> > Subject: Re: [Publicity] A thought piece: Docker and Unikernels >> > >> > On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 5:42 AM, Russell Pavlicek >> > <russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote: >> > Revised version. I've added Libby (whom I saw in the lobby earlier) and >> > the Publicity list. New title. >> > >> > Lars has indicated he wants this divorced from the Xen Project blog, since >> > it has the potential to irritate some people. I'm fine with that; I >> > irritated people on my own for years. ;) >> > >> > I have a feeling someone in the 11:15 AM slot tomorrow will make this >> > piece necessary. >> > >> > Comments? >> > Good post. >> > Just wanted to point a related 3 parts post from the OSv blog >> > http://osv.io/blog/blog/2014/06/19/containers-hypervisors-part-1/ >> > >> > >> > Russ Pavlicek >> > Xen Project Evangelist, Citrix Systems >> > Home Office: +1-301-829-5327<tel:%2B1-301-829-5327> >> > Mobile: +1-240-397-0199<tel:%2B1-240-397-0199> >> > UK VoIP: +44 1223 852 894<tel:%2B44%201223%20852%20894> >> > ________________________________ >> > From: Anil Madhavapeddy [anil@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:anil@xxxxxxxxxx>] >> > Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:55 AM >> > To: Russell Pavlicek >> > Cc: Lars Kurth; George Dunlap; >> > sconway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sconway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> > Subject: Re: A thought piece: Docker and Unikernels >> > >> > I need a cup of tea now... >> > >> > On 19 Aug 2014, at 08:52, Russell Pavlicek >> > <russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote: >> > >> > Splendid thank you! >> > >> > And as to the aggressive tone: welcome to America! ;) >> > >> > Sent from my Android phone using TouchDown >> > (www.nitrodesk.com<http://www.nitrodesk.com/>) >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Anil Madhavapeddy [anil@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:anil@xxxxxxxxxx>] >> > Received: Tuesday, 19 Aug 2014, 8:37AM >> > To: Russell Pavlicek >> > [russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx>] >> > CC: Lars Kurth [lars.kurth@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:lars.kurth@xxxxxxxxxx>]; >> > George Dunlap [George.Dunlap@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:George.Dunlap@xxxxxxxxxx>]; >> > sconway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sconway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> > [sconway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sconway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>] >> > Subject: Re: A thought piece: Docker and Unikernels >> > >> > It's an aggressively toned article, but not offensively so. I like it... >> > >> > A couple of minor tweaks: >> > >> >> There is no multi-user operating system, no shell scripts, and no massive >> >> library of utilities to take up room – or to employ in some nefarious >> >> exploit. There is just enough code to make the application run, and >> >> precious little for a malefactor to leverage. It's not the “end-all >> >> be-all” of security, but it is certainly facing the right direction. >> > >> > could have a note on type safety added: >> > >> > There is no multi-user operating system, no shell scripts, and no massive >> > library of utilities to take up room – or to employ in some nefarious >> > exploit. There is just enough code to make the application run, and >> > precious little for a malefactor to leverage. All the code that is >> > present is statically type-safe, from the application stack all the way >> > down to the device drivers themselves. It's not the “end-all be-all” of >> > security, but it is certainly facing the right direction. >> > >> >> I fully expect that 5 years from now we will look back at the unikernels >> >> of 2014 and see these as the seedlings of what will be a growing forest >> >> of unikernel-type systems. Frankly, I can't wait to see what will develop >> >> in this space. >> > >> > Could note that unikernels and containers may well converge: >> > >> >> I fully expect that 5 years from now we will look back at the unikernels >> >> of 2014 and see these as the seedlings of what will be a growing forest >> >> of unikernel-type systems. They can be viewed as the natural evolution of >> >> Linux containers - maintaining their packaging and deployment benefits, >> >> but adding much more specialization into the mix to reduce resource >> >> wastage and external attack surface. >> > >> > -a >> > >> >> On 19 Aug 2014, at 07:24, Russell Pavlicek >> >> <russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote: >> >> >> >> Folks, >> >> >> >> I woke up this morning with this going through my head. It was pretty >> >> much written in one shot (which I never do), so it may take some >> >> polishing, but I think the thoughts are all there. >> >> >> >> I see James Bottomley on the Keynote list for Wednesday morning and I >> >> anticipate another round of the "Docker has won" message that James has >> >> become famous for. >> >> >> >> I'd like your feedback. Ideally, I'd like to propose this for >> >> Linux.com<http://Linux.com> in order to temper the flawed notion of >> >> Docker as the panacea of virtualuzation, hopefully before the media swell >> >> around his prognostications dies down. >> >> >> >> What do you think? >> >> >> >> Russ Pavlicek >> >> Xen Project Evangelist, Citrix Systems >> >> Home Office: +1-301-829-5327<tel:%2B1-301-829-5327> >> >> Mobile: +1-240-397-0199<tel:%2B1-240-397-0199> >> >> UK VoIP: +44 1223 852 894<tel:%2B44%201223%20852%20894> >> >> <Docker has not won the war-the battle is just beginning.odt><Docker has >> >> not won the war-the battle is just beginning.pdf> >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Publicity mailing list >> > Publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:Publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> > http://lists.xenproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/publicity >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Publicity mailing list >> Publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> http://lists.xenproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/publicity > > > > -- > Sarah Conway > PR Manager > The Linux Foundation > sconway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > (978) 578-5300 Cell > Skype: sarah.k.conway > _______________________________________________ > Publicity mailing list > Publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > http://lists.xenproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/publicity Attachment:
Docker has not won the war-the battle is just beginning-V4.odt _______________________________________________ Publicity mailing list Publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://lists.xenproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/publicity
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