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Re: [Xen-devel] [PATCH v4 0/4] virtio: Clean up scatterlists and use the DMA API

On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 12:33 PM, Jan Kiszka <jan.kiszka@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On 2015-07-28 21:24, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 12:06 PM, Jan Kiszka <jan.kiszka@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> On 2015-07-28 20:22, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
>>>> On Tue, Jul 28, 2015 at 10:17 AM, Jan Kiszka <jan.kiszka@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> On 2015-07-28 19:10, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
>>>>>> The trouble is that this is really a property of the bus and not of
>>>>>> the device.  If you build a virtio device that physically plugs into a
>>>>>> PCIe slot, the device has no concept of an IOMMU in the first place.
>>>>> If one would build a real virtio device today, it would be broken
>>>>> because every IOMMU would start to translate its requests. Already from
>>>>> that POV, we really need to introduce a feature flag "I will be
>>>>> IOMMU-translated" so that a potential physical implementation can carry
>>>>> it unconditionally.
>>>> Except that, with my patches, it would work correctly.  ISTM the thing
>>> I haven't looked at your patches yet - they make the virtio PCI driver
>>> in Linux IOMMU-compatible? Perfect - except for a compatibility check,
>>> right?
>> Yes.  (virtio_pci_legacy, anyway.  Presumably virtio_pci_modern is
>> easy to adapt, too.)
>>>> that's broken right now is QEMU and the virtio_pci driver.  My patches
>>>> fix the driver.  Last year that would have been the end of the story
>>>> except for PPC.  Now we have to deal with QEMU.
>>>>>> Similarly, if you take an L0-provided IOMMU-supporting device and pass
>>>>>> it through to L2 using current QEMU on L1 (with Q35 emulation and
>>>>>> iommu enabled), then, from L2's perspective, the device is 1:1 no
>>>>>> matter what the device thinks.
>>>>>> IOW, I think the original design was wrong and now we have to deal
>>>>>> with it.  I think the best solution would be to teach QEMU to fix its
>>>>>> ACPI tables so that 1:1 virtio devices are actually exposed as 1:1.
>>>>> Only the current drivers are broken. And we can easily tell them apart
>>>>> from newer ones via feature flags. Sorry, don't get the problem.
>>>> I still don't see how feature flags solve the problem.  Suppose we
>>>> added a feature flag meaning "respects IOMMU".
>>>> Bad case 1:  Build a malicious device that advertises
>>>> non-IOMMU-respecting virtio.  Plug it in behind an IOMMU.  Host starts
>>>> leaking physical addresses to the device (and the device doesn't work,
>>>> of course).  Maybe that's only barely a security problem, but still...
>>> I don't see right now how critical such a hypothetical case could be.
>>> But the OS / its drivers could still decide to refuse talking to such a
>>> device.
>> How does OS know it's such a device as opposed to a QEMU-supplied thing?
> It can restrict itself to virtio devices exposing the feature if it
> feels uncomfortable that it might be talking to some evil piece of
> silicon (instead of the hypervisor, which has to be trusted anyway).
>>>> Bad case 2: Some hypothetical well-behaved new QEMU provides a virtio
>>>> device that *does* respect the IOMMU and sets the feature flag.  They
>>>> emulate Q35 with an IOMMU.  They boot Linux 4.1.  Data corruption in
>>>> the guest.
>>> No. In that case, the feature negotiation of "virtio-with-iommu-support"
>>> would have failed for older drivers, and the device would have never
>>> been used by the guest.
>> So are you suggesting that newer virtio devices always provide this
>> feature flag and, if supplied by QEMU with iommu=on, simply refuse to
>> operate of the driver doesn't support that flag?
> Exactly.
>> That could work as long as QEMU with the current (broken?) iommu=on
>> never exposes such a device.
> QEMU would have to be adjusted first so that all its virtio-pci device
> models take IOMMUs into account - if they exist or not. Only then it
> could expose the feature and expect the guest to acknowledge it.
> For compat reasons, QEMU should still be able to expose virtio devices
> without the flag set - but then without any IOMMU emulation enabled as
> well. That would prevent the current setup we are using today, but it's
> trivial to update the guest kernel to a newer virtio driver which would
> restore our scenario again.

Seems reasonable.

>> If we apply something similar enough to my patches, then even old
>> hypervisors (e.g. Amazon's hardware virt systems) will support Xen
>> with virtio devices passed in just fine.
> Then it seems we can make everyone happy - perfect. :)


FWIW, I have no intention to touch the QEMU code for this.  I'm
willing to do the vring bit and the virtio-pci bit as long as it's
well specified.


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