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[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index] Re: [Publicity] A thought piece: Docker and Unikernels
I'd rather this piece go up as is, than not go up at all. I do see Russ' point and I should clarify that for me, the idea of a 'battle' between Docker and hypervisors is somewhat false (which obviously affects how I'm approaching this). However, I'm also aware that there may be many people out there who *do* perceive it that way and without pieces like this, will simply repeat the narrative they're already hearing. In that respect, I do think it important that this post go up. I look forward to seeing it live. Best wishes, Amir On 27 Aug 2014, at 20:43, Anil Madhavapeddy <anil@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > I like the piece as it stands, as long as it doesn't go on the Xen.org blog > -- it's much more appropriate as an opinion piece on Linux.com. > > Many articles will be needed to get the message across, and I'll work with > Amir on capturing his nuance (which is also very valid -- it's a complex set > of tradeoffs we're making here). > > But this piece should go live soon during VMWorld, ideally... > > -anil > > On 27 Aug 2014, at 20:36, Russell Pavlicek <russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx> > wrote: > >> I've done some work with Sarah and Libby to see if the piece can be >> reconstructed as requested. After working with this for a while, I think it >> falls apart. >> >> Talking about people using Docker in VMs before revealing the supposed death >> of hypervisors destroys the premise of the piece: the only logical end point >> is to assert that the very notion of a "battle" between hypervisors and >> containers is false. And that means total rewrite. >> >> With the concept of a "battle" gone, the punch of the piece is gone. An >> argument piece must be punchy. Without the battle, the piece begins a >> descent into clinical logic, which is useless in a screaming crowd. Without >> a total rethink and rewrite, the piece is doomed to failure. >> >> I don't think the praises of Docker should be moved to the bottom. If I >> don't acknowledge the value of Docker early, I will be quickly dismissed as >> a hypervisor bigot and many people will quit reading before they see that I >> understand its value. Also, the best way to put an opponent off balance is >> to compliment him or her, and then smack them. >> >> I know this piece isn't all that folks want. Maybe I'm not smart enough to >> do that, or maybe I just don't have enough time. But I know what I have >> successfully done to wake readers up in the past. I'm suggesting we go with >> the attached. If it isn't what we want, I will scrap it and let someone >> else do a more appropriate piece. >> >> Russ Pavlicek >> Xen Project Evangelist, Citrix Systems >> Home Office: +1-301-829-5327 >> Mobile: +1-240-397-0199 >> UK VoIP: +44 1223 852 894 >> ________________________________________ >> From: Amir Chaudhry [amc79@xxxxxxxxx] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2014 9:50 AM >> To: Lars Kurth; Russell Pavlicek >> Cc: Sarah Conway; Libby Clark; George Dunlap; publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> list >> Subject: Re: [Publicity] A thought piece: Docker and Unikernels >> >> Russell, thanks for wading through my stream of consciousness. I was >> worried I'd torpedoed the discussion and that was not my intent. >> >> Regarding this post, I can completely understand the need for a 'hold your >> horses' position but I think the current post can still be improved in that >> regard. My suggestions are: >> >> - The section on the benefits of containerisation can be moved to much later >> in the post, in a shorter paragraph. There's no need to start a 'hold your >> horses' post by spurring the horses. >> >> - The paragraph beginning "According to reports from a couple different >> attendees of LinuxCon..." needs to be nearer the top. IMHO this is the meat >> as it describes why Xen matters (and incidentally, is the kind of scenario I >> alluded to). >> >> - The only argument in the piece is about shared kernels. There's probably >> more than this which can be pointed out, e.g if one of your deployments >> needs an upgraded/different host OS, you're stuck having to deal with issues >> on other containers (to keep things in lockstep). >> >> - I feel more should be said about Xen/hypervisors before getting to >> unikernels. At the moment there's only one paragraph. Unikernels make sense >> in the context of Xen (especially now that it's working on ARM — which >> itself is an important point). >> >> - (related to above) The section on unikernels needs more of a lead in. At >> the moment it comes across as a non-sequitur. >> >> - "Mirage OS from Xen Project" is better as "Mirage OS, incubated at Xen >> Project," >> >> I'm more than happy to help with this post if you'd like actual edits and I >> can clear time this afternoon (UK time). Just invite me to a Google doc >> where we can edit. If you'd prefer to go live as is, I understand that too. >> >> Best wishes, >> Amir >> >> >> On 27 Aug 2014, at 10:12, Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >>> Given the recent Docker and VMWare hype, which pretty much seems to be >>> about very little – aka running Docker within VMWare containers and some >>> tools integration. A concept that both AWS and Google have completed a >>> while back, I agree with Russell here. I am not sure how effective it will >>> be, but we should try >>> Lars >>> >>> From: Russell Pavlicek <russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx> >>> Date: Wednesday, 27 August 2014 06:01 >>> To: Sarah Conway <sconway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Libby Clark >>> <lclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> Cc: Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xxxxxxxxxx>, George Dunlap >>> <george.dunlap@xxxxxxxxxx>, "publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" >>> <publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> Subject: RE: [Publicity] A thought piece: Docker and Unikernels >>> >>> Sarah/Libby, >>> >>> I've attached a slightly modified post. >>> >>> I'd rather see this in Linux.com rather than XenProject.org so it won't be >>> mistaken as an "official" Xen Project position. >>> >>> Regarding Amir's comments: >>> >>> I've finally had the time to give your comments the consideration they are >>> do. And, while I see your argument and look forward to your development of >>> the concept into a substantial article somewhere (and I am sure the >>> XenProject.org blog will be happy to publish that piece when you have it >>> completed), I don't feel I should severely modify the piece I've written. >>> >>> Amir is rightly concerned that my post will be perceived as a (rather >>> myopic) official position paper. In fact, it is nothing of the sort. I've >>> written many such pieces over the years to call out what I perceive as >>> dangerous errors in a populist "hive mind" position. The purpose of the >>> piece is to cry, "Whoa!" to a team of horses which are in danger of >>> inciting an ill-considered stampede. The carefully detailed whitepapers >>> describing a meticulous counter proposal are still needed, but they will >>> not be heeded until the crowd in motion slows down enough to read. >>> >>> My piece is the cry to slow things down. I look forward to Amir's piece >>> (and others) which give us a reasoned argument for a better direction. But >>> those pieces will be ignored and trampled unless we can first halt the >>> stampede and get people to slow down enough to heed reason. >>> >>> Amir, I have pitched a talk for CPOSC in November about the rise of the >>> unikernel. I'd be thrilled to see how your workflow justification matures >>> so I can possibly incorporate elements of your thought into that talk (with >>> attribution), I believe a talk like that would be an excellent place to >>> introduce a more logical positioning of unikernels. >>> >>> Russ Pavlicek >>> Xen Project Evangelist, Citrix Systems >>> Home Office: +1-301-829-5327 >>> Mobile: +1-301-814-1143 >>> UK VoIP: +44 1223 852 894 >>> From: Russell Pavlicek >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 4:10 PM >>> To: Sarah Conway; Libby Clark >>> Cc: Lars Kurth; George Dunlap; publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: RE: [Publicity] A thought piece: Docker and Unikernels >>> >>> Sarah, >>> >>> Let me see what I can do this evening on this. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Russ Pavlicek >>> Xen Project Evangelist, Citrix Systems >>> Home Office: +1-301-829-5327 >>> Mobile: +1-240-397-0199 >>> UK VoIP: +44 1223 852 894 >>> From: publicity-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> [publicity-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] on behalf of Sarah Conway >>> [sconway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2014 12:48 PM >>> To: Libby Clark >>> Cc: Lars Kurth; George Dunlap; publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: Re: [Publicity] A thought piece: Docker and Unikernels >>> >>> Hi Russ, >>> >>> Do you have a revised, updated blog to share? If so, please email it so I >>> can review it again. Might want to publish today or tomorrow to catch some >>> of the VMWorld momentum. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 8:42 AM, Libby Clark <lclark@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>> wrote: >>>> Happy to run on Linux.com if it suits you, Lars. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Aug 20, 2014, at 7:33 AM, Lars Kurth <lars.kurth@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I thought about it and it would be ok on our blog. But we are sort of >>>>> preaching to the converted there, so another channel may be better >>>>> Lars >>>>> ________________________________________ >>>>> From: Tzach Livyatan [tzach@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>>>> Sent: 20 August 2014 10:06 >>>>> To: Russell Pavlicek >>>>> Cc: Anil Madhavapeddy; Libby Clark; Lars Kurth; George Dunlap; >>>>> publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>>> Subject: Re: [Publicity] A thought piece: Docker and Unikernels >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 5:42 AM, Russell Pavlicek >>>>> <russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote: >>>>> Revised version. I've added Libby (whom I saw in the lobby earlier) and >>>>> the Publicity list. New title. >>>>> >>>>> Lars has indicated he wants this divorced from the Xen Project blog, >>>>> since it has the potential to irritate some people. I'm fine with that; >>>>> I irritated people on my own for years. ;) >>>>> >>>>> I have a feeling someone in the 11:15 AM slot tomorrow will make this >>>>> piece necessary. >>>>> >>>>> Comments? >>>>> Good post. >>>>> Just wanted to point a related 3 parts post from the OSv blog >>>>> http://osv.io/blog/blog/2014/06/19/containers-hypervisors-part-1/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Russ Pavlicek >>>>> Xen Project Evangelist, Citrix Systems >>>>> Home Office: +1-301-829-5327<tel:%2B1-301-829-5327> >>>>> Mobile: +1-240-397-0199<tel:%2B1-240-397-0199> >>>>> UK VoIP: +44 1223 852 894<tel:%2B44%201223%20852%20894> >>>>> ________________________________ >>>>> From: Anil Madhavapeddy [anil@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:anil@xxxxxxxxxx>] >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:55 AM >>>>> To: Russell Pavlicek >>>>> Cc: Lars Kurth; George Dunlap; >>>>> sconway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sconway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>> Subject: Re: A thought piece: Docker and Unikernels >>>>> >>>>> I need a cup of tea now... >>>>> >>>>> On 19 Aug 2014, at 08:52, Russell Pavlicek >>>>> <russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Splendid thank you! >>>>> >>>>> And as to the aggressive tone: welcome to America! ;) >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my Android phone using TouchDown >>>>> (www.nitrodesk.com<http://www.nitrodesk.com/>) >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Anil Madhavapeddy [anil@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:anil@xxxxxxxxxx>] >>>>> Received: Tuesday, 19 Aug 2014, 8:37AM >>>>> To: Russell Pavlicek >>>>> [russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx>] >>>>> CC: Lars Kurth [lars.kurth@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:lars.kurth@xxxxxxxxxx>]; >>>>> George Dunlap >>>>> [George.Dunlap@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:George.Dunlap@xxxxxxxxxx>]; >>>>> sconway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sconway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>> [sconway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:sconway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>] >>>>> Subject: Re: A thought piece: Docker and Unikernels >>>>> >>>>> It's an aggressively toned article, but not offensively so. I like it... >>>>> >>>>> A couple of minor tweaks: >>>>> >>>>>> There is no multi-user operating system, no shell scripts, and no >>>>>> massive library of utilities to take up room – or to employ in some >>>>>> nefarious exploit. There is just enough code to make the application >>>>>> run, and precious little for a malefactor to leverage. It's not the >>>>>> “end-all be-all” of security, but it is certainly facing the right >>>>>> direction. >>>>> >>>>> could have a note on type safety added: >>>>> >>>>> There is no multi-user operating system, no shell scripts, and no massive >>>>> library of utilities to take up room – or to employ in some nefarious >>>>> exploit. There is just enough code to make the application run, and >>>>> precious little for a malefactor to leverage. All the code that is >>>>> present is statically type-safe, from the application stack all the way >>>>> down to the device drivers themselves. It's not the “end-all be-all” of >>>>> security, but it is certainly facing the right direction. >>>>> >>>>>> I fully expect that 5 years from now we will look back at the unikernels >>>>>> of 2014 and see these as the seedlings of what will be a growing forest >>>>>> of unikernel-type systems. Frankly, I can't wait to see what will >>>>>> develop in this space. >>>>> >>>>> Could note that unikernels and containers may well converge: >>>>> >>>>>> I fully expect that 5 years from now we will look back at the unikernels >>>>>> of 2014 and see these as the seedlings of what will be a growing forest >>>>>> of unikernel-type systems. They can be viewed as the natural evolution >>>>>> of Linux containers - maintaining their packaging and deployment >>>>>> benefits, but adding much more specialization into the mix to reduce >>>>>> resource wastage and external attack surface. >>>>> >>>>> -a >>>>> >>>>>> On 19 Aug 2014, at 07:24, Russell Pavlicek >>>>>> <russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx<mailto:russell.pavlicek@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Folks, >>>>>> >>>>>> I woke up this morning with this going through my head. It was pretty >>>>>> much written in one shot (which I never do), so it may take some >>>>>> polishing, but I think the thoughts are all there. >>>>>> >>>>>> I see James Bottomley on the Keynote list for Wednesday morning and I >>>>>> anticipate another round of the "Docker has won" message that James has >>>>>> become famous for. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd like your feedback. Ideally, I'd like to propose this for >>>>>> Linux.com<http://Linux.com> in order to temper the flawed notion of >>>>>> Docker as the panacea of virtualuzation, hopefully before the media >>>>>> swell around his prognostications dies down. >>>>>> >>>>>> What do you think? >>>>>> >>>>>> Russ Pavlicek >>>>>> Xen Project Evangelist, Citrix Systems >>>>>> Home Office: +1-301-829-5327<tel:%2B1-301-829-5327> >>>>>> Mobile: +1-240-397-0199<tel:%2B1-240-397-0199> >>>>>> UK VoIP: +44 1223 852 894<tel:%2B44%201223%20852%20894> >>>>>> <Docker has not won the war-the battle is just beginning.odt><Docker has >>>>>> not won the war-the battle is just beginning.pdf> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Publicity mailing list >>>>> Publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:Publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >>>>> http://lists.xenproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/publicity >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Publicity mailing list >>>> Publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>>> http://lists.xenproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/publicity >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Sarah Conway >>> PR Manager >>> The Linux Foundation >>> sconway@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> (978) 578-5300 Cell >>> Skype: sarah.k.conway >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Publicity mailing list >>> Publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> http://lists.xenproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/publicity >> >> <Docker has not won the war-the battle is just >> beginning-V4.odt>_______________________________________________ >> Publicity mailing list >> Publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> http://lists.xenproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/publicity > _______________________________________________ Publicity mailing list Publicity@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://lists.xenproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/publicity
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